#achilles x troilus

[angevinyaoiz]

Patrochilles x Troilus

A goofy scenario I’ve had in my head where instead of getting Super Murdered Troilus just gets kidnapped and this causes lots of problems and annoyances for everyone. Take notes folks, remember to do ur research and consult ur partner before impulsively attempting to add a new member to ur shared harem…

[gayestshakespearecouples]

More quotes, submitter's comments, and credits for photos under the cut!

Achilles and Patroclus

Additional quotes:

other characters commenting on their relationship (yes, I will never stop including the 'whore' one because it's hilarious)

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Submitter's comments:

(^ so true)

Hamlet and Horatio

Additional quotes:

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This is truly the most affectionate way Hamlet could have possibly chosen to sign off his letter to Horatio:

Horatio being protective + something about "we defy augury" (augury = omens, divination, fate) really gets me

Submitter's comments:

(^ I got 10 submissions for them, to be exact. :P)

Image sources:

Achilles and Patroclus: Royal Shakespeare Company, 2018

Hamlet and Horatio: Seattle Shakespeare Company, 2010

[happypeachsludgeflower]

okay. so, in Troilus and Cressida Act 2, Scene 1, while being beaten by Ajax, Thersites is cursing Patroclus and Achilles out and says, “I will hold my peace when Achilles' brooch bids me, shall I?”

now, I just kinda assumed that was the equivalent of calling Patroclus Achilles’ bitch and implying that they’re fucking. which, fair. they totally were. and it makes sense in context with Thersites personality.

but I’m scrolling through the wikipedia article reading the summary of the play for Reasons ™ right?

and omg 😆 it says the definition of ‘brooch’ during the 16th century basically meant a “pointed rod, spit, or pricker” which jjfkjckska

I’m pretty sure Thersites called Patroclus Achilles top guys

[tricksterdraws]

So last week I did this quick illustratrion about their portrayal in the rsc 2018 version of Troilus and Cressida joking I had only passing knowledge of it.

guess who now got the play on DVD, watched it, lay awake thinking about this  quote and now drew the first comic in literal years about it...

[loonyloopylupin96]

Ooh, lmk if this happens!

It'll give me an excuse to re-watch Troilus and Cressida (which was the reason I read TSOA in the first place - would recommend the 2018 RSC version)

As a side note, Andy Apollo (Achilles, above) would make a fair Remus

who's gonna write wolfstar in a patrochilles au for me to read

[bcb-brian-camryn]

Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida is inaccurate because if someone called Patroclus "Achilles' bitch" infront of Achilles, he'd kill them brutally.

[butchhamlet]

yeah you interpreted my ask correctly, that's what i meant! i definitely agree that there's a middle ground. on one hand, anything shakespeare 100% intended would've been clearly laid out in the text. it's hard to argue that he intentionally wrote something off in subtext when he pretty much spells every plot point or characterization out. it's also anachronistic to the conventions of his time, i think.

on the other hand, i've seen a bunch of people say it's impossible to present alternative character/plot interpretations in various productions because it isn't what shakespeare intended. and like i agree that on a textual level, you can't really argue that one theory is the only correct interpretation, but isn't the whole point of putting on different productions to present these same characters and stories through different angles? a theory doesn't have to be textually supported for a production to incorporate it. "shakespeare didn't use subtext" applies when studying the text academically, but different stagings naturally come with different interpretations. isn't that literally the point of having so many productions and interpretations of 1 play

this is mainly a discussion i've seen in the r/shakespeare subreddit tbh. specifically it crops up a lot when people ask "are [x] character(s) gay" and a very common response is "if shakespeare intended them to be gay, he would've explicitly spelled it out" (sometimes using achilles & patroclus from troilus and cressida as an example). it's not the majority but i've also seen a few people say some characters shouldn't be made gay since that isn't what shakespeare intended, and looking for subtext in lines is misguided. which is like. ?????? i know the people on r/shakespeare and also subreddits in general tend to be a very very different group but ?????????? i genuinely don't understand where they're coming from lmao. anyway i haven't seen anyone on tumblr talk about this and was really curious about your thoughts

"shakespeare didn't use subtext" applies when studying the text academically, but different stagings naturally come with different interpretations. isn't that literally the point of having so many productions and interpretations of 1 play

EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY!!! PRECISELY! i dunno maybe in modern theater, especially indie theater, there's not much of a gap between text and production, but we are talking about SHAKESPEARE here. every one of his plays has been done 500 bajillion times. the text as its own contained thing is NOT the same as any of the productions and the idea that you can't do anything not 100% supported by the text is ridiculous. i can see how it might be a little rude/gauche to go in a completely wild direction if you're putting on a small play by a playwright who is still alive, but shakespeare is the most famous playwright to ever live probably and also he is SOOOOOOO DEAD. he's not gonna care if you do hamlet but ophelia is pregnant! he's not gonna care if you do hamlet but hamlet isn't there so there are just giant blocks of silence for every soliloquy! and isn't it beautiful how the craziest productions are basically collaging with his text, cutting it apart and piecing it back together? i can understand not personally enjoying out-there productions, but conceptually the stuff people do with shakespeare is dope as hell

"if shakespeare intended them to be gay, he would've explicitly spelled it out" (sometimes using achilles & patroclus from troilus and cressida as an example). it's not the majority but i've also seen a few people say some characters shouldn't be made gay since that isn't what shakespeare intended, and looking for subtext in lines is misguided.

i don't know why i'm surprised that this debate is perhaps a smokescreen for "stop putting gay people in everything ugh don't ruin the sanctity of the text" and yet i'm still taken aback by just. the silliness of this argument. and these are the same people talking about anachronism???? like. sorry is this better?

[image description: the following edited lines from hamlet:

HAMLET I am glad to see you well: Horatio,--or I do forget myself.

HORATIO The same, my lord, and according to a 21st-century model of sexuality as fixed and partitioned into disparate categories based on identity more than on action, I'm a gay man btw.

/end description]

[babyrdie]

Achilles stan are really hypocritical about Alexander now, did you see that?

No, I didn't see it.

I saw people mentioning something about Achilles and Paris, now there's this ask and I'm starting to wonder if the recent ask an anon sent me about Paris was a discreet way to test me (this one, where I explicitly say that I really don't care about Paris discourse). I honestly don't know where the hell this weekly Achilles vs Paris debate came from, so I'm really confused. It's a Tumblr debate and I just didn't see the original post? Is it an debate imported from another website? I don't know. But other than Apollo and Paris killing Achilles, I don't really see what relevant connection these characters have to each other. They also don't even have the same role or the same archetypes, which once again leaves me wondering why this comparison even exists in the first place.

But here we go: my opinion is that no one is a saint. In most of these X vs Y discussions, I'm simply going to consider both characters as not being people who would be considered good today. And it's the same case here.

Achilles killed Tenes despite being warned not to do so (he was warned by Thetis, so he certainly knew she was serious), sacked cities (including not all of them were Trojans), enslaved people (both men and women. Some were sold, others remained. Some were sexual slaves, like Briseis and Diomede), committed a murder inside a temple (Troilus), dishonored a body (Hector), practiced human sacrifice (Patroclus' funeral. And you can see from the narration that it's not a case of "ah, but human sacrifice was cultural and accepted") and stopped the winds just to demand Polyxena's sacrifice (I still wonder how the hell he stopped the wind). He isn't a saint.

Paris ignored Oenone's prophecies about the fall of Troy and abandoned her (she was his first wife. And unlike Cassandra, she wasn't cursed. He didn't listen because he didn't want to), stole Menelaus (I'm not even talking about Helen. He took Menelaus' treasure too. Honestly, at that point Paris knew he was bringing war to Troy and didn't care if he felt so comfortable that he even took the treasure), depending on the version kidnapped Helen, taken city (Sidon), killed a guy because he was jealous of him with Helen (Corythus. Who is his son, by the way) and he ignored the Trojans' requests and continued the war. He was a prince, so I guarantee you he had slaves too, and slaves are indeed mentioned in Trojan territory (e.g. Lycophron writes from the point of view of a slave watching over Cassandra). He isn't a saint.

Yeah, Achilles isn't just a cute guy in love and suffering for his boyfriend, but Paris is also not just a cute and harmless little thing. People paint Paris too much as harmless useless. So my honest opinion is that this discussion is a waste of time because neither of them is the pinnacle of morality. It's reminding me of the Achilles vs Odysseus debates, which were equally pointless because Odysseus, like Achilles and Paris, is also not an immaculate crystal. The Clytemnestra vs. Agamemnon debates were also another pointless thing because sometimes they even cited something they both did but only against one (e.g., Clytemnestra ridiculing Cassandra's status as a Trojan captive in "Agamemnon" and Agamemnon doing the same to Hesione via Teucer in "Ajax"). At this point, I think it would be interesting to read Greek mythology without trying to do morality rankings. I also already talked about this in this post.

So that's it, that's my opinion. I haven't ignored any asks I've received so far, but if I receive one more ask about fans and haters of characters and morality in Greek mythology I'll probably ignore it because I think my opinion is already pretty clear (It's even in my post about my blog). I also talked about this in the Hades Odysseus controversy.

[underrated-lovers-of-apollo-poll]

Round 4: Poll 2

*Please Read*

I advise everyone to read each contestant's story to get a well-rounded understanding of each entry. I urge you to not just vote for the one "you know best". I have everyone's stories/reasons why they should win under the cut.

(Helenus art by @luddlestons)

Propaganda:

Helenus

What's The Love Story?

Helenus was the son of Priam and Hecuba of Troy! He's also the twin of Cassandra, and received the gift of prophecy from Apollo. Apollo also gave him an ivory bow that Helenus used to shoot Achilles in the hand with :3

Why Should They Win?

I know we all love Hector X Apollo, but this is a really good one too! Especially considering the Apollo's relationship with both Helenus & Cassandra!

Hecuba

What's The Love Story?

Hecuba was the Queen of Troy during the Trojan War. She had many children with her husband, Priam, but she also had a son with Apollo, Troilus, who was killed by Achilles inside Apollo's temple. :(

When the Troy was sacked, one version states that Apollo rescued Hecuba and brought her to safety in Lycia. <3

Why Should They Win?

This shows that even after Apollo's relationships end, he still cares about them <3

Kids?

Troilus. RIP :( he died too young

[rikusqueenofhearts]

Let's do something random, shall we?

[angevinyaoiz]

Achilles x Troilus original flavor (overthinking and thinking about visual inspirations below the cut)

never know wtf these ppl should be wearing bc of the mix of eras in artistic depiction but inspired by the meme both what i thinknis the most common vase image i keep seeing

Plus the extremely phallic Sword Pointing combined with Rooster

Troilus in my mind is very indistinct shota-aged bc of the ambiguity but the meme requires a Specific Number Age for the “punchline” so I just went with that. Also bc the emphasis of the horror of the event is often on youth + the scandalousness of death of unarmed very noncombatant little boy (inpubes) so u know, exaggeration for tragedy, as seen in the top illustration which really emphasizes his tinyness.

In this comic he meets his famous fate….but what if…he didnt���read These doodles for more of his unfortunate adventures

[gayestshakespearecouples]

More quotes, submitter's comments, and credits for photos under the cut!

Antonio and Sebastian

Additional quotes I picked out:

Generally the way Antonio adresses Sebastian:

Submitter's comments:

Achilles and Patroclus

Additional quotes I picked out:

the quote featured above was Patroclus calling Achilles "my sweet"; a few lines later (and also at least one other occasion) Achilles returns the term of endearment

Achilles and Patroclus don't actually appear that much in the play but others talk about their relationship:

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Submitter's comments:

(so true, what more do you need to know?)

Photos:

Antonio and Sebastian: The Tempest (2010) movie

Achilles and Patroclus: Royal Shakespeare Company, 2018

[littlelovsrs]

WHO was gonna tell me that William Shakespeare shipped patrochilles/achicleos?????????

[mntds]

Troilus and Cressida: act 3 scene iii

[bcb-brian-camryn]

I will never forgive Shakespeare for Troilus and Cressida, it's just a bad representation of Akhilleus and Patroklos' relationship.

[caravaggihoess]

Cinematic parallels

An underrated Nicky x Joe moment is when Merrick calls them both lab rats and Joe’s immediate response is to go “this man thinks you’re a mouse Nicky” like he didn’t even think for a second about himself he just saw this douchebag insult his husband and was like no fucking SIR.